Thursday, September 4, 2014

Grr Goon Industrialists

I did something stupid last night.  I read a thread on the official EVE Online forums titled "Ore Compression and the State of Crius Industry."  Apparently Goons and other members of the CFC are upset that the high sec miners are not doing as they should and compressing their ore.  I'm not going to tar all of null sec with a broad brush as others, notably from Pandemic Legion and The Fourth District from the alliances I recognized, disagreed with the CFC members.

When I first saw the proposal for the refining/reprocessing changes, I figured that null sec alliances would need to set up POS in high sec in order to do the ore compression needed to supply the newly buffed null sec industry.  Apparently a lot of null sec industrialists thought that people in high sec would do all of the work.  Personally I didn't think they would.  I know I would refuse to haul the ore around when I could just refine it.  Or, as Goonswarm's Retar Aveymone stated:
"There is a massive amount of round-trip hauling, which is perhaps the worst sort of pointless busywork that exists in this game. As a result, few people are doing compression and I expect a shocking number of those are hauling bots. No sane human at the computer can sit there doing round trips from a station to a pos in a freighter all day."
In another post, Retar stated:
"Price signals do not work when the producers are too dimwitted to respond to them. Furthermore the immense effort of compressing any reasonable amount of ore is not a fun addition to the game. Nobody wins when someone's doing an infinite number of round trips to their pos. Their pos has nothing valuble in it, their freighter doesn't either (and even if it did, it's ungankable unless they don't think to dock up) and the actual gameplay is basically a war crime.

"Anyone who wants to verify what I say is correct needs only look at the actual compressed ore volume in jita. I have simply halted my T1 building until it's fixed, and I'm not the only one."
Like I stated above, this attitude was not shared by most of the posters.  The tone was pretty much reserved for CFC members and forum alts.  The Fourth District's Grace Chang responded directly to Retar's quote above:
"So basically you are saying people are too dumb to make a profit in EvE and the market is broken when the market is ruthless for pretty much other item. I am pretty sure that is it and not you being a cheapskate.

"Here is what i suspect: The market accurately reflects the effort and much volume is handled via private contracts.

"You can currently buy plenty of compressed veldspar at a 19% markup in Jita. Seems fair to me considered the hauling around issue.

"Here is a thought:

a.) pay the extra fee to the people who do the logistics of buying ore, hauling it, compressing it, and hauling it back
b.) befriend some highsec miner corporation to get a stable deal
c.) recruit miners for your 0.0 operation (because that is what this is about) and stop treating them like ****.

"Either way the easy mode mineral logistics is gone for now. HTFU."
Pandemic Legion's Kenneth Feld chimed in with a few notable words.  Post 1:
"Education is the key. I flew around and found corps of miners, talked to them, educated them, now I have brokered deals with them to buy every piece of ore they mine. I have now 8 corps on my roster and I buy everything, I haul it for them.

"Now before you get up in arms about freighters, red frog does the same thing - I am just one stop shopping.

"This is not rocket science but sitting in Jita and bitching and moaning about the compressed ore not coming to you is stupid

"425mm railguns never came to you either, but in the end you figured out a way to get them


"You need to figure out how to get ore or compressed ore, the tools are there for you to use"
Remember my belief that null sec entities would have to set up operations in high sec?  What Kenneth is doing is what I thought would happen.  Then again, perhaps the fact that PL's spiritual home is in Minmatar low sec has something to do with having a more pragmatic attitude.

Post 2:
"If people have been doing something for 11 years and now you need them to do something different, bitching on forums to get CCP to change it back isn't the answer. Education is key my friend - that also is NOT CCP's job

"If you want to get to a different discussion on how viable mining is in nullsec ---> forum is that way

"Last year at EvE Vegas when anomoly changes were coming and Mexallon was getting the big nerf bat, we complained and everyone toed the same line 'We will monitor'"

"In lieu of them changing, you must overcome and adapt, obviously, you have been unable, I have been able with little or no fuss whatsoever."
Post 3:
"So, educate the miners to not refine, it isn't difficult and I have had GREAT success at doing it, I suggest you try the same. It would require you to talk to pubbies, which is beneath you, I understand.

"or you can continue to ***** and moan here

"Your call"
Tzar Sinak of Mythic Heights (which I believe is a w-space corp) offered up some practical advice:
"CCP has changed the mechanics of the game and it is having an impact on the way many in null sec play the game. Instead of asking CCP to change the game to meet null sec needs and effecting everyone else I respectfully suggest null try to adapt to the changes.

"Let us see, how do I now get all the minerals I need to build my fleet of capital ships?

  • I could slow down production.
  • I could hire miners to mine the low ends exclusively in null sec (better pay them appropriately). Yes, that means anomalies, combat sites, belts (shudder) of many systems.
  • I could hold mining ops in low sec.
  • I could take control of some low sec systems for the sole purpose of mining them.
  • I could hire hi sec miner corps to produce what I need.
  • I could hire hi sec transport outfits to haul and compress.
  • I could, wait for it, mine in WH space while linked to my null sec systems.
  • I could hire WH corps to mine and transport for me.

"I could do any combination of the above WITHOUT affecting the rest of the game by insisting on a mechanics change.

"Compression mechanics as is is just fine. Time to expand your horizons and possibilities."

[Some reformatting performed to make more readable]
Another member of the CFC, Komi Toran, believes the small, high sec mining corps or casuals who mine part-time should just carry a small tower around with them.
"You only put it up when and where you need it. A compression POS doesn't just save you ISK, it lets you mine anywhere in high-sec without the need of a freighter fleet to get your goods to market. So not only do you make more ISK on the rocks you mine, but it saves you over one billion ISK for your logistics chain. It's a better investment than upgrading a barge to an exhumer."
Sorry, but I know if I still lived in high sec I wouldn't bother with a POS.  Why do I want to go through the hassle of setting one up and tearing it down all the time?  Besides, I don't mine enough to make a POS cost effective.  I think those who are just mining on an alt in order to afford to PvP would agree.

I should add that some wondered about low sec mining.  A character in an NPC corp, handige harri, wrote:
"It appears this is not really a high sec miners not compressing problem though seeing your trit and pyerite numbers. It looks more like nobody mining Lowsec ores, which are the major supplier of Isogen/Nocx and in a lesser amount Mex.Which is weird, as they have been the best isk/hour ores in the game for a while and with the new compression ratios you get mad isk/m3 with compressed low sec ores."
Grace Chang added:
"Makes perfect sense tbh. With lowsec being the most dangerous region for miners, the prices have to go up a lot more i suspect before people bother to go there with a prospect. But wouldn't it be nice if they would actually eventually do that?"
As I've written before, the problem isn't the actual mining itself.  The problem is getting the ore to market.  Small-time operators like myself are not going to operate a POS in low sec.  That's asking to lose a lot of ISK.  So if we want to move significant quantities of ore, low sec miners will need to use either a Miasmos or a deep space transport.  I came up with a Miasmos fit that relies on the Cloak/MWD trick.  I'll have to look up my Mastodon fit, although I don't know if the extra cargo capacity (the Mastodon can use giant secure cargo containers) is worth risking a tech 2 ship.

The use of the Prospect is amusing since the introduction of the Mordus rats in low sec belts.  The argument for the Prospect is, besides the ability to use a cloak, that its defense would rely on a small signature.  But with the tackle bonuses on the Mordus rats, would I want to risk a tech 2 frigate?  I think a Procurer could fight its way out of the situation.  I'm not sure if a Prospect could run away.

Also, I'm not sure if a Prospect can really mine fast enough.  I saw a fit that relies on Modulated Deep Core Miner IIs that could match a max tank Procurer in mining output, but I'd rather rely on a Procurer for low sec.  I'd use the Prospect in either a wormhole or in NPC null trying to track down mercoxit.

I guess I'm getting mean in my fifth year of playing EVE, because I have very little sympathy for Sir Mittani's industrialists.  I realize they are locked in an arms race with Nulli and PL and the industry changes benefiting null sec weren't supposed to inconvenience them in any way.  Instead, high sec miners are acting in ways that make sense to them and not according to design plan set up by CCP.  As Kenneth Feld and others pointed out, the optimal play is to actively engage with high sec miners and otherwise adapt to the new environment.

I know, I know.  Why should the industrialists of the Greater Goon Community have to stoop so low as to talk and work with pubbie scum?  Such a system puts a group like the Goons at a severe disadvantage.  After all, between the thousands of scams, daily suicide ganking of freighters and miners, payment of billions to James315 to harass high sec miners, the yearly Burn Jita event, plus the constant name calling and derision that comes from the GSF and CFC, why would any high sec miner want to do anything to benefit Goons if they have any alternative at all?  CCP, in effect, has set up a system that benefits people like Kenneth Fuld who belong to alliances that at least keep their antics mostly confined to low and null sec.

I realize that is so unfair and that I should sympathize with the desire to have CCP alter the game to benefit a group like the Goons and CFC who have a poor reputation.  I mean, why should the Goons' actions have any consequences?  The stupid pubbies are supposed to do all the work of compressing the ore.  If they don't, then the game developers need to change the mechanics.  After all, what do they think EVE is, a sandbox?


  1. Had my doubts about CCP forcing pubbies into social play, but Goon tears are best. If they find themselves having to build bridges into highsec, sounds fruitful.

  2. And *that* is one reason why Machiavelli said that if you're going to inspire fear in the people, don't do it in a way that makes them hate you. And also why it's a good idea to build good will, and a really bad idea to squander it.

  3. First CFC started to 'import' renters out of highsec. Now they do have a huge army of organized rorqual/orca/hulk boosted miners in nullsec and start crying for highsec ores. Those who delivered the highsec ores (or minerals) in the past are now in nullsec.
    Renters may start to wonder why they have left highsec and why they are paying rent for mining less ISK/h compared to highsec. They will move back to highsec and CFC will be happy to see an increase in highsec ore supply. Yet they'll get less rent.

    I think it is time for a Veldspar-Interdiction.
    CFC really should bring thousands of Catalyst equiped with Miner I turrets and gank those highsec belts until they are depleted.

    If CCP would really consider to change the supply situation I would be annoyed. If moon mats or morphite are short on supply (or I am not willing to pay the given prive) I can't ask CCP to add moonmining and mercoxit to highsec. Imagine those goon tears if that would happen!

  4. I really don't care what a handful of forum warriors have to say on the subject. There will be a minority, within non-CFC alliances and in the CFC, that take the time to craft deals with front-line mining corps. But on a larger scale, the kind of scale that allowed for the massive proliferation of capitals and supercapitals, the Crius change to compression was a broad-based nerf.
    Capital/SC production may have had its big swinging dick producers, but I would bet that the majority of actual hulls being produced were coming from hundreds of smaller shops. They are much less likely to be as vocal and will either adapt to the changing environment or just hang it up out of annoyance.
    No matter what one side or the other has to say on the forums, sofar as they can be a reliable barometer of who they purport to represent, the fact is that all sides will be hurt pretty equally in their ability to obtain compressed ores from hisec. This was a nullsec nerf designed to curb proliferation and it will do so pretty even handedly.

  5. To go against my fellows in the thread, I don't think station compression is necessary and I do think that (while it's slow) more and more people are compressing ore. Whether it's the miners themselves or people buying the ore (provided, of course, that the miners realize the ore is worth more if they don't have perfect refined), market volumes have been going up.

    That's not to say some enhancements wouldn't be nice. The ability to set courier contracts to deliver to (and pick up from? That might be harder though) a POS would be a great boon, not only to compressors but anyone who happens to use a POS for industry as well. This is the angle I'm taking in advocating tweaks to CCP.

  6. "I know I would refuse to haul the ore around when I could just refine it."
    Is that because you aren't being fairly compensated for producing the end product (compressed ore) or because its so boring that there really is no "fair price" for you as a player?
    Rather than reprocess, why not just stockpile the ore locally and sell it? Thus giving middlemen the option of buying the ore and reprocessing or compressing? Once into mins no further decision can be made.

  7. What everyone seems to miss with the compression discussions is that compression as a mechanic adds only time for the miner with no added benefit. For the producer it provides clear benefit and reduces time. From the miner's perspective every hour spent compressing/hauling is simply one hour away from mining. It is impossible for the miner to extract extra profits from compression since at most the producer is only going to compensate the miner for the time taken. Miners are no more interested in compression now than they were making 425 railguns prior to Crius.

    The other factor is the ability to sell compressed ores. People respond to markets and the markets for tritanium are well established and it is usually possible to refine and sell your trit for within about 1-3% of median prices in almost all highsec regions and not a few low sec ones. The compressed ore market is immature and focused almost exclusively in market hubs in the buy order volumes necessary to make people take notice. It took me several months of having established buy orders up in non-market regions even on refined minerals to get people to sell locally as opposed to going after the marginally higher prices in the trade hubs. I can't imagine why any miner would be willing to not only compress but haul ore to Jita for every day's production.

  8. Every day is one day closer to Gianturco telling his SA jackasses to leave the game.

    No pity for CCP when that day comes, as they have sold their soul to suck on his cock for a handful of worthless coins.

    When all those subs go bye-bye, what was planned from the outset will become complete, and the shitters will move on to the next game to kill, and some new corp will sell it's soul.

    History repeats itself, because people are too damned stupid to learn from it.

  9. The best thing I have read all week. Sounds to me like Goonswarm has lived organically beyond the means to self-support through industry. If they want the minerals, it's time they parked their megathrons and flew barges.

    So mynnna shall I again float my idea of mineral bartering for rent? That's Ok, I am not telling what else the crystal ball has to say - I don't do spoilers.

  10. As with any step up the value-added chain, the producer should be compensated. If they are not, then they wouldn't, or shouldn't (this is EVE), do it. Any miner that does it for no commensurate income gain would be silly to do it.
    However, there are other options for miners. One of which being to not haul any of it past their mining system. It's going to take some time for the market to transition to where uncompressed ore becomes the standard. As long as it remains in that state it is useful to those who want mins and those who require compressed ore for transit. Uncompressed ore suits both parties. Compressed ore or refined minerals really only suit subsets of the market. Those who just want mins won't want to pay the upcharge for compression if all they are going to do is refine it. Conversely, those who need it compressed aren't in the market for refined minerals.
    The issue for the miner is: where does he maximize his income? Calculating the value of minerals is easy. Calculating the value of ore is a bit more difficult and calculating a proper value for compressed ore is even harder. Minerals are the easy way out, but not necessarily the most profitable. That being said, its a game and "easy" is sometimes the best route for many players who are not interested in maximizing space profits.

  11. Why would anyone barter minerals (ores) for rent? If renters are in the business of mining and paying rent so that they can mine, their concern should be they are obtaining the best price, less transit costs, that they can get. A local market paying their desired price should be better for them than a distant market. The problem is that nullsec isn't the best mining grounds for low-end construction ores. The initial quantity is less than in hisec because more of the belt is made up of "higher quality" ores, and the respawn rates are less frequent. Thus the ore nullsec needs to produce big ships, in quantity, comes from hisec. Now maybe there is a deal to be cut there. Offsetting rent in null for non-mining operations in return for ores out of hisec.

  12. Hulkageddon, Burn Jita, Ice Interdiction; knowing that refined minerals will not be used by the most spiteful player group in the history MMO? Smells like victory. I do not care if refined sell under prices for compressed.

    Nor should I be forced into needing a POS for the most basic line of industry, ie mineral management. Yes, risk vs reward; I don't risk a POS, I am not rewarded by being able to sell compressed minerals. Game working as intended.

    If the goons are not able to purchase enough compressed minerals, it is the limitation of the market, yet another intended functionality of Eve. But they don't seem to be content and want the game adjusted to their play style. "play style" is just another sand castle in the box, something to be knocked over.

    As for minerals for rent? Why not, Goons need the minerals from somewhere. The plan is simple, the minerals get delivered to a nominated outpost. The renters take responsibility for the transport/logistics of low end minerals; as a way of paying the rent. Then train through bridge to "space-Detroit" for manufacturing.

    and let me just leave there here

    Ignore Industrialists: In an alliance or corporation, industrialists are completely irrelevant and should never be allowed a voice in anything. Sound extreme? It isn’t. An industrialist is not a logistician, but a ‘producer’. Producers live in hisec in countless numbers, and anything that is built there can simply be imported from Jita with a jump freighter - by a logistician. Logisticians matter in alliances; so do financiers, diplomats, and most of all warriors. Producers do not. There has never been a war in the history of EVE which was won by an advantage in local production

    imported from jita?! - not anymore.

  13. I used to live in drone space, and one of the things drones space alliances did very well before the great nerf, was setup a logistics pipeline that paid very reasonable rates for shipping drone alloy to market so the producers didn't have to worry about it. I still say to this day the Drone Regions were the only area of Null industry ever worked. And a lot of that was because they built that infrastructure.

    So now CFC has a huge rental area, and they have mineral problems. Take a page out of the old drone land playbooks. Setup a middle man corp inside their rental alliance. They can spin the thing as a value added proposition for renting with the CFC and generate goodwill with miners. Heck, if they want to bolster miner corps in their rental properties short term they can even run a limited time deal. "Come here, and we'll give you a large POS with a compression array.". The mining corps can add else they want to it, so long as they compress all ore they sell to the CFC. It'd cost Mittens & Co nothing really, but it's a large carrot to mining outfits.

  14. At the time that comment was made in April 2013, that was a completely valid, and widespread thought throughout most if not all of non-renter nullsec. Nullsec miners were not important. They were in fact, leeches on most alliances. That being said, hisec miners were part of the actual supply chain for production.
    The bulk of construction minerals always has and always will come from hisec. If mining for lowends in nullsec is required to build anything past battleships, not much will get built. The volume of ores is just insufficient in null and there will never be the volume of miners requires to scour every system. But I recognize the anti-goon bitterness and how it clouds logical and rational thoughts. It's OK. Both sides participate in it. I just prefer to stick with the facts and not the emotional outcries

  15. Prior to the refining changes a case could be made that the ore was interchangeable with the minerals ... that no longer holds. Since a miner is a price taker rather than a price setter the only viable long term strategy the market provides is to maximize extraction (exhumer skills), maximize minerals from ore (refining skills), and minimize transaction costs (use the market buy/sell orders). Any one setting up private deals is at some point balancing the cost of compression/hauling against the increased transaction costs. This can only be profitable if their are (2) sides to that trade before the compression/hauling takes place and because of the way markets in eve work this won't be widespread enough to compete with the hyper-efficient markets eve has for minerals.

    I don't think it's a matter of "easy" versus "hard" so much as a balance between "certain" versus "unreliable". The guy looking to plex or achieve some self set goal doesn't want to bear the uncertainty in compression/hauling --- the minerals market provides an absolute number to make decisions from.

  16. well, my easy versus hard example was related to what has always been (mine/refine) versus new choices of refine/not refine/compress. The easy path just being make no new effort.
    Ore is still interchangeable with minerals, but there are now some variables involved. Ore for use in hisec may have one value, because all refining yields are the same assuming max skills. Obviously nullsec can squeeze out more yield, but for the miner in hisec, I would think the base hisec yield should act as the price determiner.
    Similar to changes in production, there are obviously more variables involved with the mining profession now than there used to be. And that is a roadblock to adaptation. It's still early days. I'm not real worried that in the end the market will adapt and I don't think it requires changes by CCP. But it is very much the reason why months ago we told listeners to buy low-end mineral like trit well before the expansion. Any producer that didn't know this was going to be a rough road to compressed ore was blind.

  17. I agree that Drone industry was the top of the game, but it wasn't because of the infrastructure so much as the availability of minerals. But that wasn't from mining. Nobody mined to build in the Drones back then. The infrastructure you speak of was due to the fact that the Drones were already the absolute best place to be a builder. The infrastructure followed.

  18. As someone in low sec, it's a lot easier and safer to refine it. Also, I'm not sure the extra profit is really worth it.

  19. It is funny that the same people talking about how the eh carebrears just dont want to adapt are now crying for in station compression..