When I first saw the proposal for the refining/reprocessing changes, I figured that null sec alliances would need to set up POS in high sec in order to do the ore compression needed to supply the newly buffed null sec industry. Apparently a lot of null sec industrialists thought that people in high sec would do all of the work. Personally I didn't think they would. I know I would refuse to haul the ore around when I could just refine it. Or, as Goonswarm's Retar Aveymone stated:
"There is a massive amount of round-trip hauling, which is perhaps the worst sort of pointless busywork that exists in this game. As a result, few people are doing compression and I expect a shocking number of those are hauling bots. No sane human at the computer can sit there doing round trips from a station to a pos in a freighter all day."In another post, Retar stated:
"Price signals do not work when the producers are too dimwitted to respond to them. Furthermore the immense effort of compressing any reasonable amount of ore is not a fun addition to the game. Nobody wins when someone's doing an infinite number of round trips to their pos. Their pos has nothing valuble in it, their freighter doesn't either (and even if it did, it's ungankable unless they don't think to dock up) and the actual gameplay is basically a war crime.Like I stated above, this attitude was not shared by most of the posters. The tone was pretty much reserved for CFC members and forum alts. The Fourth District's Grace Chang responded directly to Retar's quote above:
"Anyone who wants to verify what I say is correct needs only look at the actual compressed ore volume in jita. I have simply halted my T1 building until it's fixed, and I'm not the only one."
"So basically you are saying people are too dumb to make a profit in EvE and the market is broken when the market is ruthless for pretty much other item. I am pretty sure that is it and not you being a cheapskate.Pandemic Legion's Kenneth Feld chimed in with a few notable words. Post 1:
"Here is what i suspect: The market accurately reflects the effort and much volume is handled via private contracts.
"You can currently buy plenty of compressed veldspar at a 19% markup in Jita. Seems fair to me considered the hauling around issue.
"Here is a thought:
a.) pay the extra fee to the people who do the logistics of buying ore, hauling it, compressing it, and hauling it back
b.) befriend some highsec miner corporation to get a stable deal
c.) recruit miners for your 0.0 operation (because that is what this is about) and stop treating them like ****.
"Either way the easy mode mineral logistics is gone for now. HTFU."
"Education is the key. I flew around and found corps of miners, talked to them, educated them, now I have brokered deals with them to buy every piece of ore they mine. I have now 8 corps on my roster and I buy everything, I haul it for them.Remember my belief that null sec entities would have to set up operations in high sec? What Kenneth is doing is what I thought would happen. Then again, perhaps the fact that PL's spiritual home is in Minmatar low sec has something to do with having a more pragmatic attitude.
"Now before you get up in arms about freighters, red frog does the same thing - I am just one stop shopping.
"This is not rocket science but sitting in Jita and bitching and moaning about the compressed ore not coming to you is stupid
"425mm railguns never came to you either, but in the end you figured out a way to get them
"This is NO DIFFERENT
"You need to figure out how to get ore or compressed ore, the tools are there for you to use"
"If people have been doing something for 11 years and now you need them to do something different, bitching on forums to get CCP to change it back isn't the answer. Education is key my friend - that also is NOT CCP's jobPost 3:
"If you want to get to a different discussion on how viable mining is in nullsec ---> forum is that way
"Last year at EvE Vegas when anomoly changes were coming and Mexallon was getting the big nerf bat, we complained and everyone toed the same line 'We will monitor'"
"In lieu of them changing, you must overcome and adapt, obviously, you have been unable, I have been able with little or no fuss whatsoever."
"So, educate the miners to not refine, it isn't difficult and I have had GREAT success at doing it, I suggest you try the same. It would require you to talk to pubbies, which is beneath you, I understand.Tzar Sinak of Mythic Heights (which I believe is a w-space corp) offered up some practical advice:
"or you can continue to ***** and moan here
"CCP has changed the mechanics of the game and it is having an impact on the way many in null sec play the game. Instead of asking CCP to change the game to meet null sec needs and effecting everyone else I respectfully suggest null try to adapt to the changes.Another member of the CFC, Komi Toran, believes the small, high sec mining corps or casuals who mine part-time should just carry a small tower around with them.
"Let us see, how do I now get all the minerals I need to build my fleet of capital ships?
- I could slow down production.
- I could hire miners to mine the low ends exclusively in null sec (better pay them appropriately). Yes, that means anomalies, combat sites, belts (shudder) of many systems.
- I could hold mining ops in low sec.
- I could take control of some low sec systems for the sole purpose of mining them.
- I could hire hi sec miner corps to produce what I need.
- I could hire hi sec transport outfits to haul and compress.
- I could, wait for it, mine in WH space while linked to my null sec systems.
- I could hire WH corps to mine and transport for me.
"I could do any combination of the above WITHOUT affecting the rest of the game by insisting on a mechanics change.
"Compression mechanics as is is just fine. Time to expand your horizons and possibilities."
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"You only put it up when and where you need it. A compression POS doesn't just save you ISK, it lets you mine anywhere in high-sec without the need of a freighter fleet to get your goods to market. So not only do you make more ISK on the rocks you mine, but it saves you over one billion ISK for your logistics chain. It's a better investment than upgrading a barge to an exhumer."Sorry, but I know if I still lived in high sec I wouldn't bother with a POS. Why do I want to go through the hassle of setting one up and tearing it down all the time? Besides, I don't mine enough to make a POS cost effective. I think those who are just mining on an alt in order to afford to PvP would agree.
I should add that some wondered about low sec mining. A character in an NPC corp, handige harri, wrote:
"It appears this is not really a high sec miners not compressing problem though seeing your trit and pyerite numbers. It looks more like nobody mining Lowsec ores, which are the major supplier of Isogen/Nocx and in a lesser amount Mex.Which is weird, as they have been the best isk/hour ores in the game for a while and with the new compression ratios you get mad isk/m3 with compressed low sec ores."Grace Chang added:
"Makes perfect sense tbh. With lowsec being the most dangerous region for miners, the prices have to go up a lot more i suspect before people bother to go there with a prospect. But wouldn't it be nice if they would actually eventually do that?"As I've written before, the problem isn't the actual mining itself. The problem is getting the ore to market. Small-time operators like myself are not going to operate a POS in low sec. That's asking to lose a lot of ISK. So if we want to move significant quantities of ore, low sec miners will need to use either a Miasmos or a deep space transport. I came up with a Miasmos fit that relies on the Cloak/MWD trick. I'll have to look up my Mastodon fit, although I don't know if the extra cargo capacity (the Mastodon can use giant secure cargo containers) is worth risking a tech 2 ship.
The use of the Prospect is amusing since the introduction of the Mordus rats in low sec belts. The argument for the Prospect is, besides the ability to use a cloak, that its defense would rely on a small signature. But with the tackle bonuses on the Mordus rats, would I want to risk a tech 2 frigate? I think a Procurer could fight its way out of the situation. I'm not sure if a Prospect could run away.
Also, I'm not sure if a Prospect can really mine fast enough. I saw a fit that relies on Modulated Deep Core Miner IIs that could match a max tank Procurer in mining output, but I'd rather rely on a Procurer for low sec. I'd use the Prospect in either a wormhole or in NPC null trying to track down mercoxit.
I guess I'm getting mean in my fifth year of playing EVE, because I have very little sympathy for Sir Mittani's industrialists. I realize they are locked in an arms race with Nulli and PL and the industry changes benefiting null sec weren't supposed to inconvenience them in any way. Instead, high sec miners are acting in ways that make sense to them and not according to design plan set up by CCP. As Kenneth Feld and others pointed out, the optimal play is to actively engage with high sec miners and otherwise adapt to the new environment.
I know, I know. Why should the industrialists of the Greater Goon Community have to stoop so low as to talk and work with pubbie scum? Such a system puts a group like the Goons at a severe disadvantage. After all, between the thousands of scams, daily suicide ganking of freighters and miners, payment of billions to James315 to harass high sec miners, the yearly Burn Jita event, plus the constant name calling and derision that comes from the GSF and CFC, why would any high sec miner want to do anything to benefit Goons if they have any alternative at all? CCP, in effect, has set up a system that benefits people like Kenneth Fuld who belong to alliances that at least keep their antics mostly confined to low and null sec.
I realize that is so unfair and that I should sympathize with the desire to have CCP alter the game to benefit a group like the Goons and CFC who have a poor reputation. I mean, why should the Goons' actions have any consequences? The stupid pubbies are supposed to do all the work of compressing the ore. If they don't, then the game developers need to change the mechanics. After all, what do they think EVE is, a sandbox?